Автор Тема: вопрос про лампы в преудсилителе транзисторного усилка  (Прочитано 1515 раз)

0 Пользователей и 1 Гость просматривают эту тему.

Оффлайн MalenkiyBass Автор темы

  • Новичок
  • *
  • Сообщений: 26
  • Репутация: +4/-1
Я хотя по образованию и радиоинженер, но конструктор, и ламповую схемотенику знаю фигово. Объясните пожалуйста, как лампы, которые ставят в предусилитель транзисторных аппаратов вроде MARSHALL AVT50, влияют на звук? Хочу врубиться на уровне схемотехники   :-[ .

Оффлайн AZG

  • Живу на форуме
  • *******
  • Сообщений: 90103
  • Репутация: +9938/-1413
  • Санкт-Петербург
    • AZG CUSTOM
MalenkiyBass, В АВТ влияют, но до полноценного лампового преда далеко.

Оффлайн MalenkiyBass Автор темы

  • Новичок
  • *
  • Сообщений: 26
  • Репутация: +4/-1
То что до лампового преда далеко, это слышно на живом аппарате  :)
мне интересно, чем именно там занимаются лампы - то есть существует ли техническое обоснование какой-то глобальной разницы в звуке между таким усилком и чисто транзисторным или главным образом лампы туда ставят чтобы народ покупал активнее?

Оффлайн AZG

  • Живу на форуме
  • *******
  • Сообщений: 90103
  • Репутация: +9938/-1413
  • Санкт-Петербург
    • AZG CUSTOM
MalenkiyBass, Чаще чтобы покупал. В АВТ вклад неплохой, а вот к примеру, Фендер РокПро лампа по сути для подсветки. Делает звук чуть потолще, если вытащить, то все работает :)

Оффлайн MalenkiyBass Автор темы

  • Новичок
  • *
  • Сообщений: 26
  • Репутация: +4/-1
Забавно они на фендере паяют :)
короче ясно, искать среди таких аппаратов смысла нет.

Оффлайн albertas

  • Живу на форуме
  • *******
  • Сообщений: 8186
  • Репутация: +557/-34
  • Игнорирую посты, где ко мне обращаются на "Вы"
    • В этом городишке я живу
Слушал как-то гибридный Trace Elliot. Вроде Tramp модель называется. Так вот там без шутки звучит в сторону полной лампы, но там лампочка влияет не только на драйв, но и на чистый. Правда, аппарат редкий

Оффлайн Silence

  • Ветеран форума
  • ******
  • Сообщений: 4924
  • Репутация: +186/-74
  • Russian doomster
    • Wine From Tears
В Randall RG100G3 тоже лампа есть. Но я англ знаю плохо, так и несмог понять где именно и что она там делает. Но влоб сравнивал с г2 серией. Звук налицо шире! Лампу реально слышно+с внешними педальками дружит на уровне нормального лампового аппарата.
 
вот инфа:
For several years now various amp makers have preceded the release of a new solid-state, hybrid, or digital amp design by claiming that their amplifiers truly achieve that sought after full tube tone.

Have any succeeded yet? I guess only you, the guitar player, can answer that question, but the main reason we devoted a large amount of resources to R & D the project below was because we were determined to either solve those vast differences once and for all, or come much closer than anyone has to date.

The benefit for guitarists, if someone could pull this off, would be to possibly bring a new cherished tone to the market, or more likely give them a real option to wave goodbye to power tube failures, high maintenance costs, and the inevitable night to night tone inconsistencies. I mean, let’s face it, most quality built tube amps sound fantastic when they’re working in a perfect environment like a controlled recording studio, or a well maintained rehearsal spot. But, to gig regularly with a temperamental tube amp, as many of you know, can become quite a frustrating ch allenge. Properly maintained tube amps, whether you like it or not, require a change of power tubes periodically which can easily run you a quick $100 to have someone change and re-bias the amp correctly, not to mention you’re most likely without the amp for a few days. These occasional & costly power tube headaches are really the main reason some manufacturers are even attempting hybrids and/or inventing digital modeling amps, to hopefully recreate that cherished real tube tone. I don’t think any manufacturer would honestly say with a straight face that their amps will eliminate or replace the need for a classic to modern tube amp, but wouldn’t it be nice for someone to finally design a realistic, great sounding, & road-worthy alternative.

Could someone really integrate the right combination of components and allow the word “Hybrid” to reach its full potential, or better yet, help it to live up to its enormous hype? Well, that was our goal.
Where to start:
After several initial discussions regarding which approach to take, our consensus (Chief Designer Bruce Egnater & myself) was to start with a tube driven Mosfet circuit, which we thought would provide some immediate power tube like qualities. Mosfet transistors have been around for many years, while tube driven Mosfet circuits have been used in several modern bass amp designs, so we were optimistic about starting with the tube/ Mosfet combination. The hope was that the preamp tube driving the first 2 stages of the circuit, would provide some natural tube tone and compression, while the Mosfet transistors would give us the power needed for impressive stage volume as well as the characteristics to naturally clip softer when pushed or cranked much like a traditional power tube.

After weeks of research and testing, the first hand built circuit was completed and ready for actual guitar testing. Our first reaction was ok, this is kind of tube sounding, and it was when you compared it to a standard solid-state power amp. It had a little smoother compression and was a bit wetter sounding, but it still lacked much of the reactionary qualities of the tube power amp against which we were testing it. At this point, we started to make adjustments to see how much we could push the preamp tube to hopefully increase the level of tube feel. For several days we tweaked to the point where we got as close as we were going to get with the existing circuit.

It was definitely an improvement over the stock solid-state power amp, but still fell short of what the tube power amp seemed to produce.
Key ingredients:
Well, what we did next is now classified information. Honestly, does a top chef openly give up his best recipes? I think not, but he does give you enough information where you understand why it tastes so good, so hopefully we can give you that same feeling.

Just a bit discouraged at this point, we decided to started hooking up our top secret test devices and see why this new circuit didn’t come as close as we had hoped. As we started to run tests on both the full tube power amp and our new circuit we discovered something, which should have been more obvious, that made both of us look at each other and go, would you look at that.

Right in front of us was that drastic difference we’d been searching for, which in-turn caused the amps to really sound & feel much differently. We then continued by testing our standard solid-state power amp against our new tube/ Mosfet circuit. These tests showed little subtle differences but the results were relatively the same, whereas the tube power amp test results were not even close to either one. At this point, you could just sense that this was a major reason why previous solid-state and hybrid circuits lacked a majority of the actual tube tone, feel, and response. This must be where every other design had f allen short of emulating or matching the responsive tone of an all tube power amp.

Holy Dynamics!
Over the next several weeks, followed by more than a few tweaked samples, our new tube/ Mosfet circuit began to show almost identical test results to that of the all tube power amp, according to those fancy top secret test devices. The amazing thing was you could actually feel and hear what the test results were showing, and the closer they tested the more we realized that we had truly made a major breakthrough! Not only did our new power amp circuit sound much more responsive and tube like with a solid-state preamp, like in the new G3 Series, but it was down right scary to play this power circuit matched with the full tube preamp’s of the new V2 and T2 prototypes.

We tested both prototype models head to head, with what most consider the best tube amps on the market, and we were astonished by the similarities in tone, feel, and response. Finally, we not only improved our own circuit designs moving forward, but we now feel we’ve pushed the industry through a major hurtle. We hope you enjoy each new amp with the Valve-Dynamic T M power circuit.

Оффлайн kfender

  • Ветеран форума
  • ******
  • Сообщений: 5938
  • Репутация: +537/-54
  • к.т.н.
 Silence, Randall RG100G3 до нормального аппарата очень далеко.

Оффлайн Silence

  • Ветеран форума
  • ******
  • Сообщений: 4924
  • Репутация: +186/-74
  • Russian doomster
    • Wine From Tears
kfender, вполне нормальный безпроблемный аппарат. Никак не хуже маршала авт

Оффлайн kfender

  • Ветеран форума
  • ******
  • Сообщений: 5938
  • Репутация: +537/-54
  • к.т.н.
kfender, вполне нормальный безпроблемный аппарат. Никак не хуже маршала авт
Это я согласен - не хуже авт. Им обоим до нормального аппарата ой как далеко :)

Оффлайн Silence

  • Ветеран форума
  • ******
  • Сообщений: 4924
  • Репутация: +186/-74
  • Russian doomster
    • Wine From Tears
kfender, ну никтож не претендует на лавры ректифаера)))
А как нормальный надёжный репетиционный аппарат- вполне ничо. Главно лампа там слышится. а не для декору))

Оффлайн kfender

  • Ветеран форума
  • ******
  • Сообщений: 5938
  • Репутация: +537/-54
  • к.т.н.
kfender, ну никтож не претендует на лавры ректифаера)))
А как нормальный надёжный репетиционный аппарат- вполне ничо. Главно лампа там слышится. а не для декору))
Лучший способ потерятся в миксе на репе - воткнуться в маршалл АВТ :)

Оффлайн Silence

  • Ветеран форума
  • ******
  • Сообщений: 4924
  • Репутация: +186/-74
  • Russian doomster
    • Wine From Tears
kfender, Да это от многих факторов зависит. Включая качество гитары.
Мне из авт нравится только 275й, старый. А про потерю в миксе- вопрос к покойному Чаку Шульдинеру, играл както и не парился :) Хотя его звук нелюблю

Оффлайн AZG

  • Живу на форуме
  • *******
  • Сообщений: 90103
  • Репутация: +9938/-1413
  • Санкт-Петербург
    • AZG CUSTOM
Silence, Шульдинер на АВТ не играл. На Валвестейте, который сильно вменяемее по звуку.

Оффлайн Житель-Юрты-в-Степи

  • Эксперт
  • *****
  • Сообщений: 2361
  • Репутация: +217/-36
  • That's a cold shot, baby...
тем не менее, Silence прав в том, что чтобы не потеряться в миксе, надо не усилитель, а руки иметь